Comments on: Exploring the Freedomain Radio controversy (Part 0) http://www.memeverse.com/2009/07/07/exploring-the-freedomain-radio-controversy/ One mind as an universe of ideas. Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:34:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: admin http://www.memeverse.com/2009/07/07/exploring-the-freedomain-radio-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-725 admin Thu, 09 Jul 2009 07:59:46 +0000 http://www.memeverse.com/?p=256#comment-725 Thanks for the comment Chaohinon. The comment on iconoclasm resonates well with me and I also largely agree with what you say about responsibilities. I think if Stefan really was dishonest and thus deliberately tried to manipulate people he would be personally responsible for <em>those attempts</em>, but not for other people's failure to resist such manipulations, yet people as you point out usually tend to put all of that responsibility to Stef and thus make the manipulated into 100% innocent victims. I think it is possible for a person to become effectively immune to manipulation by learning to think, feel and sense with full integrity and no repression between all three which is ironically the very philosophy promoted at FDR. It's like, FDR gives you the theoretical and mental framework that you can use against any manipulations within FDR itself. Thanks for the comment Chaohinon. The comment on iconoclasm resonates well with me and I also largely agree with what you say about responsibilities. I think if Stefan really was dishonest and thus deliberately tried to manipulate people he would be personally responsible for those attempts, but not for other people’s failure to resist such manipulations, yet people as you point out usually tend to put all of that responsibility to Stef and thus make the manipulated into 100% innocent victims.

I think it is possible for a person to become effectively immune to manipulation by learning to think, feel and sense with full integrity and no repression between all three which is ironically the very philosophy promoted at FDR. It’s like, FDR gives you the theoretical and mental framework that you can use against any manipulations within FDR itself.

]]> By: Chaohinon http://www.memeverse.com/2009/07/07/exploring-the-freedomain-radio-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-724 Chaohinon Thu, 09 Jul 2009 07:33:00 +0000 http://www.memeverse.com/?p=256#comment-724 I'd like to add to cult-issue that, as anyone who's been involved in communities built around personalities can attest to, there are always those will encircle the center of attention like strangely benign jackals. However, unlike others who end up in that situation, Stef actually (A) recognizes that they're damaged personalities, and this is largely not their fault and (B) makes a genuine effort to reach out and help them. A lot of the problems plaguing the bigger picture of mankind's struggle against violent outbursts of insanity boil down to people having their minds emotions wrecked early on in their psychological development. Something that turns the tide against that, even on a small scale, would be profound in terms of human growth potential. And...really, a cult? By that same token, old school pamphleteers like Lysander Spooner could have also been regarded as cultists (and would very well have ended up in the same position if they were born into the internet age). Dropping little neutron bombs of iconoclasm into the information network may mess with the programming a bit, but that can hardly be called culty any more than pamphleteering could have been. At the very worst, any "cultiness" about FDR would be the responsibility of the people who chose to plunge into it. This notion that he's somehow responsible for what anyone has done is analogous to the notion of inherited responsibilities in general. We have to let go if this retarded myth that people can just be unwillingly handed responsibilities by others at a personal level before we can ever hope for it to resonate politically and economically. I’d like to add to cult-issue that, as anyone who’s been involved in communities built around personalities can attest to, there are always those will encircle the center of attention like strangely benign jackals.

However, unlike others who end up in that situation, Stef actually (A) recognizes that they’re damaged personalities, and this is largely not their fault and (B) makes a genuine effort to reach out and help them.

A lot of the problems plaguing the bigger picture of mankind’s struggle against violent outbursts of insanity boil down to people having their minds emotions wrecked early on in their psychological development. Something that turns the tide against that, even on a small scale, would be profound in terms of human growth potential.

And…really, a cult? By that same token, old school pamphleteers like Lysander Spooner could have also been regarded as cultists (and would very well have ended up in the same position if they were born into the internet age). Dropping little neutron bombs of iconoclasm into the information network may mess with the programming a bit, but that can hardly be called culty any more than pamphleteering could have been.

At the very worst, any “cultiness” about FDR would be the responsibility of the people who chose to plunge into it. This notion that he’s somehow responsible for what anyone has done is analogous to the notion of inherited responsibilities in general. We have to let go if this retarded myth that people can just be unwillingly handed responsibilities by others at a personal level before we can ever hope for it to resonate politically and economically.

]]> By: admin http://www.memeverse.com/2009/07/07/exploring-the-freedomain-radio-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-722 admin Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:13:54 +0000 http://www.memeverse.com/?p=256#comment-722 It's alright QuestEon. While I still don't agree with your criticism for Stef's philosophy of forgiveness... I've been reading articles on your site and they seem fairly respectful and interesting, however from the beginning of reading it, and as usual with these sorts of things, I feel like there's something missing there. An alternative way of thinking about these issues which I personally think would go a long way in balancing the controversy until it ceases to be a controversy (in the strong sense of the word, involving all of the metaphorical mud being thrown back and forth) and becomes a mere friendly disagreement that leaves room for partial reconciliation. That's what I hope to offer. As for LiMi, for the already mentioned reasons (on which I'll expand later on) I simply think it's best for me not to participate there and associate with it directly anymore. Clearly I don't quite agree with the FDR related atmosphere prevalent there yet if I would ignore that and treat it as just another libertarian forum it's just not compelling enough for me compared to all the other forums available (like NHU for instance), especially considering I don't post too often on either of them (not even FDR). Most of all, I like to be an independent soul (which is partly why I do web publishing). Of course you could also say I don't want to be banned from FDR for posting at LiMi, and I would admit that has a SMALL part to do with it as well, but can you blame me? I wish to have all my venues open and if I don't find LM particularly compelling why would I do what I know would end up in limiting me. Regards It’s alright QuestEon. While I still don’t agree with your criticism for Stef’s philosophy of forgiveness… I’ve been reading articles on your site and they seem fairly respectful and interesting, however from the beginning of reading it, and as usual with these sorts of things, I feel like there’s something missing there. An alternative way of thinking about these issues which I personally think would go a long way in balancing the controversy until it ceases to be a controversy (in the strong sense of the word, involving all of the metaphorical mud being thrown back and forth) and becomes a mere friendly disagreement that leaves room for partial reconciliation.

That’s what I hope to offer. As for LiMi, for the already mentioned reasons (on which I’ll expand later on) I simply think it’s best for me not to participate there and associate with it directly anymore. Clearly I don’t quite agree with the FDR related atmosphere prevalent there yet if I would ignore that and treat it as just another libertarian forum it’s just not compelling enough for me compared to all the other forums available (like NHU for instance), especially considering I don’t post too often on either of them (not even FDR). Most of all, I like to be an independent soul (which is partly why I do web publishing).

Of course you could also say I don’t want to be banned from FDR for posting at LiMi, and I would admit that has a SMALL part to do with it as well, but can you blame me? I wish to have all my venues open and if I don’t find LM particularly compelling why would I do what I know would end up in limiting me.

Regards

]]> By: QuestEon http://www.memeverse.com/2009/07/07/exploring-the-freedomain-radio-controversy/comment-page-1/#comment-721 QuestEon Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:47:31 +0000 http://www.memeverse.com/?p=256#comment-721 Hey MV--I just realized something I hadn't known before. You see, like a lot of people, I sometimes get involved in other stuff and stop checking into forums for a while. That happened earlier this year, at least Feb through May, with LiMi. As a result, I was completely unaware of your "My overall judgment of FDR (and LiMi)" post until I saw your essay above! In my view, it is a thoughtful and respectful post (just like your essay). Likewise, I didn't see your rebuttal to my "forgiveness" analysis until weeks after you posted it and the thread had moved on. At that time, the thread seemed dead and forgotten so I left a few thoughts assuming that would be it. I can see now why--after you put such detailed thought into your rebuttal--you would consider my response "weak," and for more than a month, actually non-existant! I don't have any illusion that that's going to bring us any closer to agreement, but for my part I'm sorry that my absence caused the confusion and that I failed to give your initial rebuttal the attention it deserved. One more thing, by the way, I enjoy Liberating Minds and a lot of people who hang out there (but I can say the same for Mises and FreeTalkLive) and would not want to be considered a spokesperson for that or any other site. It would be unfair to them to suggest that my viewpoints are representative of anything other than me. -Q.E. Hey MV–I just realized something I hadn’t known before. You see, like a lot of people, I sometimes get involved in other stuff and stop checking into forums for a while. That happened earlier this year, at least Feb through May, with LiMi. As a result, I was completely unaware of your “My overall judgment of FDR (and LiMi)” post until I saw your essay above! In my view, it is a thoughtful and respectful post (just like your essay). Likewise, I didn’t see your rebuttal to my “forgiveness” analysis until weeks after you posted it and the thread had moved on. At that time, the thread seemed dead and forgotten so I left a few thoughts assuming that would be it. I can see now why–after you put such detailed thought into your rebuttal–you would consider my response “weak,” and for more than a month, actually non-existant! I don’t have any illusion that that’s going to bring us any closer to agreement, but for my part I’m sorry that my absence caused the confusion and that I failed to give your initial rebuttal the attention it deserved.

One more thing, by the way, I enjoy Liberating Minds and a lot of people who hang out there (but I can say the same for Mises and FreeTalkLive) and would not want to be considered a spokesperson for that or any other site. It would be unfair to them to suggest that my viewpoints are representative of anything other than me. -Q.E.

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