I feel a sufficient amount of conviction in the idea that a Laissez-Faire Free Market society can work without a government and only without a government intervention to openly state that I am now an anti-statist, with beliefs which probably fit the common definition of an “anarcho-capitalist”.
I actually feel that I’ve been slowly travelling towards this point of my life for quite a while, the recent months in which I dedicated quite a bit of time towards introspection, self-discovery, truly open minded debating and exploration being a sort of a catalyst that just accelerated my coming to this point. You can even see from my blog posts that I have been increasingly gravitating towards individualist humanist ideas of full individual liberty and responsibility and I have recently participated in a rather large and heated Libervis.com debate where I found myself defending libertarian / anarcho-capitalist ideas quite adamantly.
In other words I didn’t really need much by now to just tip me over into a full conviction. And a book I’ve just read (and simultaneously listened to, as the audio book is available), has provided much more than just a tip over. It blew my mind too. It is an incredible,detailed, logically sound description of a Laissez-Faire Free Market society and how it could really work and in fact work far better than any of the current government led societies. It literally has an answer to all of the major questions or objections I or most people would have against a society so radically different so as not to have or need a government.
The book is called “The Market for Liberty and that’s where you can download it in both PDF and audiobook format (torrent with high quality mp3s is high-speed). You can’t believe how much I recommend you read it.
One of the fundamental reasons for which I find it so convincing is the fact that the authors base their reasoning on what is essentially a logical scientific theory which a back up in reality can easily be accounted for. We simply have to observe ourselves as human beings and how we naturally interact. It takes no genius to conclude that self-interest has a great deal to do with it. The book, in my mind, successfully and completely dismantles the ideas such as altruism and even pacifism which ultimately result in contradicting and even immoral and self destructive behaviour. Yes, I am no longer a supporter of altruism and pacifism. I might sympathize with the intention of those who associate themselves with these ideologies, but the ideologies themselves I find fundamentally flawed.
The scientific “theory” is a Natural Law which is as objectively real as the law of gravity. You can believe with all your heart and mind that gravity does not exist and then throw yourself off of a skyscraper - regardless of your beliefs you will suffer the consequences of the fall.
Similarly, there is a Natural Law to human behaviour, which if not followed must lead to adverse consequences to the society and its economy. Here is a nice quote about that from the book:
“Natural law does apply to human relationships, and it is just as objective, universal, and inescapable in this area as in any other. The proof of this is that actions have consequences . . . in the area of human interaction as surely as in the area of human medicine. A man who swallows poison will become ill (even if he has complete confidence that the poison is nothing more than vitamin pills). A man who aggresses against others will be distrusted, avoided, and probably made to repay his victims (if some government doesn’t interfere). A
man who cheats his customers will be driven out of business by his more reputable competitors. The consequences of “breaking” natural law cannot be avoided. No matter how cleverly a man schemes, he will suffer if he insists on acting in a manner which contradicts the nature of human existence. The consequences may not be immediate, and they may not be readily apparent, but they are inescapable.
The free market is a product of the working of natural law in the area of human relationships, specifically economic relationships. Because man’s survival and well-being are not given to him, but must be achieved, men act to maximize their welfare (if they didn’t they couldn’t keep on living).. To maximize their welfare, they trade with other men, and when they trade, each man tries to get the best possible “deal.” Buyers bid against each other and push prices up. Sellers bid against each other and push prices down. At the point where the two forces meet, the market price is set, and everyone who wants to trade at that price can do so without creating surpluses or shortages. Thus, the law of supply and demand, and all other market laws, are really natural laws, directly derived from the nature and needs of that specific entity, man. The fact that market laws are natural laws explains why the free market works so well without any outside regulation. Natural law is always practical—it always “works.”"
Obviously, once a human recognizes that all actions have consequences it will be in his self interest to pursue activities which would result in maximum good for him or her, and in a society in which everyone is free to pursue anything (without the government to forbid certain kinds of pursuits or attempt to meddle in all of the other pursuits) coercion actually represents an undesirable means towards achieving maximum good for oneself. And it is therefore, as initiated by the market forces (powered by the law of supply and demand) enforcing the principle of non-coercion naturally.
This very notion undermines the criticism which somehow equates a society of fully free individuals to chaos (essentially, a lot more violence). Yet it is exactly the government, as a coercive monopoly, which has violence as an integral part of its way of “doing business”. As the book says, it “institutionalizes violence”. As such, the way government offers its services to people in what is consistent with the definition of a “protection racket”. They will protect us from poverty, for instance, by making us pay for welfare services under threat of theft of property (fines), incarceration or outright violence should we actively resist them.
Furthermore, by forbidding certain kinds of pursuits the government is actually creating “black markets” itself. And while you may already be aware of this, something that most people doublethink away, is that the very fact these pursuits are forbidden is what creates ecosystems of crime. This is because only people who are not afraid of government brute force are willing to enter markets which the government prohibits, because they themselves are not afraid to use brute force against the government as well. This gives way to organized crime or what we know as “Mafia”. So much for a government led society preventing the culture of violence that is usually associated with “chaos”.
And I no longer buy the argument that if the government doesn’t work this is just because there is corruption within it, but it would work if we got rid of that corruption. The thing is, government is fundamentally corrupt in itself, by its very nature as a coercive monopoly that concentrates power under the guise of protecting those which it coerces. It thrives on a moral contradiction.
Black market is just one of the actually more obvious ways in which the government harms the well being of individuals in a society, ALL individuals including the poor. The book describes ways which are much more subtle and much more easily escape the critics. Every single, even most seemingly insignificant regulation, can have tremendous consequences - all of which ultimately lead to MORE poverty and LESS economic growth.
The book even deals with such hard questions as how would a free market society deal with the few who would exercise aggression on other people and how would it defend itself from foreign attacks, and does this in a quite capable and convincing way. It further even poses that an effect that establishing a free market society in a particular part of the world would actually start the process which would lead to a world in which wars would not be fought. Because as people in the world see that government is an unnecessary evil whose impositions they don’t actually need to submit to, they will demand freedom, weakening their own governments while strengthening the economy of this single government-less free market country even further (by migrating there, investing there etc.).
And once all governments and their war machines collapse, who would be left to wage war? Aggression and trade are mutually incompatible. A Free Market is inherently anti-war, which can’t be said for governments the power of which is actually strengthened by the existence of an additional powerful enemy from which it needs to “protect” its citizens from (as we well see in the USA today.)
The prospects of establishing even just ONE Laissez-Faire Free Market society in the world are simply staggering. If it proves that it can work, and I am fully convinced that it would - because it respects the laws of nature governing human relations (without the need of artificial government) - it would mark an Earth shattering paradigm shift.
And I will be working towards establishing such a society. The book gives quite a sound and powerful method of doing it. It actually advocates against such methods as violent revolution, infiltration of government by other anarcho-capitalists, libertarians and alike or even total separation from the current government system (going off the grid or escaping into an unpopulated island). Instead it approaches a simple yet very powerful method: the spread of an idea.
And the idea that government is not actually a necessary evil, that taxes ARE actually theft and that paying taxes and other protection fees DOES NOT actually help the poor - are incredibly powerful ideas - might be the most powerful ideas you may ever convey to another person.
Therefore I would upgrade the statement of my purpose in life, my ultimate desire for the world from “a world where technology is used in a socially, ethically and ecologically responsible way” into “a world where governments no longer exist and technology is used and developed in a socially, ethically and ecologically responsible way”. I do feel now that the existence of a society without a government is a precursor to a society that is responsible in the way it manages technological use and development - because such a society is consisted of people who don’t just follow the leader and train dependence, but actually lead their own life and affairs and train personal responsibility.
And the only way we can hope for humanity to learn to use and develop technology responsibly is to make human individuals responsible and free themselves.
I would also note, as a result of this change in thinking, that I no longer assume as much distrust towards “Big Business” and corporations as I used to, and instead divert more of such distrust towards government itself. In fact, big business or small business or any business is doing exactly what we would expect them to do - follow their self interest (in which sense they’re actually most trustworthy). The fact that government has polluted the free market within which they operate and corrupted the balance it thrives on hence leading the business world in an awry direction is less of a fault of business and more of a fault of government meddling.
In their attempt to save the market from itself, they actually broke it, bluntly said. And I don’t take kindly to that, considering that I AM within that market and I SUFFER the consequences of their sleazy fingers in my affairs.
Nobody will stop this idea from spreading. I will dedicate DoublePlusHuman.com as a hopefully innovative and effective platform for spreading the idea of liberty, as it can fully be achieved.



March 27th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Well, I haven’t read that book (I’ll have a look at it when I have some time)… But let me give you something to contemplate.
Some companies are actually more powerful than governments. They can in principle get away with anything because they can easily afford to pay any fine they will get, and won’t get fines that they couldn’t afford to pay because the governments depend on them.
Do you seriously think this situation exists because of too much rather than too little regulation?
Do you seriously think that if even alliances of organizations as powerful as governments can’t or won’t bring down a company, the people can?
And what do you think the majority of people who are locked in to using the products and services of harmful companies will think of those trying to bring those same companies down?
March 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Okay, I quickly read through the first part.
The book states that in a truly free market without government, a coercive monopoly cannot exist. Sorry, but I don’t buy that. Once a monopoly accumulates enough wealth, it can literally get away with anything, government or no government. A completely “free” market doesn’t prevent that if those leading/owning the company are clever enough to hide their plans while they are still vulnerable to competition. Can a government prevent it? Well, I hope so.
March 27th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Continuing reading while compiling a kernel…
The following bit from the book is gold: A rapist who attacked and beat a woman would be responsible not only for paying medical bills for all injuries he had caused her and reparations for time she might lose from work, but he would also owe his victim compensation for her pain and suffering, both mental and physical…. (page 95)
It follows that if one is rich enough, there’s nothing stopping one from rape. You might say “but nobody would want to do business with a known rapist, making him starve”. Wrong. The price of everything he wanted to buy would surely go up a lot, but only among sellers who recognized him, and if one is rich enough…
On the flip side, victims of violence and even more so those who are afraid to become victims might not be interested in having damages paid after a fair trial, they might be more interested in revenge or a preemptive strike. What if you’re the poor and slightly odd behaving person who really is perfectly peaceful, but is believed to be a pedophile? Hire protection against angry mobs forever? What, you’re not rich enough to afford that? Ask a charity for help! Oh my, they won’t help you because they think you’re creepy… Now what?
Well, I guess it’s clear what I think of letting only the market regulate violence.
March 27th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
> Do you seriously think this situation exists because of too much rather than too little regulation?
I think that the very fact that such huge corporations exist despite all of the government regulation points to the failure of governments to do anything. Yet, as you may or may have not read yet in the book, even slight regulation of the market leads to imbalances which can cause, among other things, ones to grow too powerful and others to remain too poor.
Note that a lot of these big companies are being sustained by the governments themselves (government contracts or through skillful use of political pull).
You can hardly argue that this would be worse if market wasn’t regulated at all because such a market was never established. We never even got a chance to see a market at work on its own, without ANY regulation.
> Do you seriously think that if even alliances of organizations as powerful as governments can’t or won’t bring down a company, the people can?
Yes, given that enough people actually *want* to bring it down. The thing is that today the government actually takes away a significant amount of power from individuals making them LESS capable of rising up to market challenges such as monopolies. Again, it was explained in the book. A way to disrupt monopolies is to cause competition. And the more people are capable of starting their own business the more competition could spring up. Yet, under government the poor people seldom have the book-keeping and accounting know how as well as the money for all of the procedural fees and taxes to afford starting their own business - many not so well off people are actually PREVENTED by the government to enter the market and compete.
Therefore making people less empowered to create a healthy opposition to whatever market challenge arises. Government stiffles the natural opposition and supposedly replaces it with a crude and totally inefficient replacement which seems to actually support monopolies more than not (just think of all the laws which have been passed recently in western countries which actually HELP digital monopolies (software/culture) to remain so).
> The book states that in a truly free market without government, a coercive monopoly cannot exist. Sorry, but I don’t buy that. Once a monopoly accumulates enough wealth, it can literally get away with anything,
That was dealt with in Chapter 11 of the book I believe. With less regulation more power is in the hands of individuals. This strengthens every area, including media. For lack of news about what the government does all of the news will be focused on business affairs and any suspicion of secret activities would be a huge magnet for those looking for a big story. We’re talking about a society in which are no longer utterly ignorant because “they can’t change anything anyway”, looking up to the government to solve all their problems. This is a society of people who, empowered by true freedom that they now have actually ACT much more and much more efficiently.
Read it up.
About your rape example, you simply misunderstand how a free market actually works, which is very easy to do when viewing the world through a lens of how it is today.
If a rich man is the one doing the rape the victim and the arbiters could realize exactly the point you are making and demand reparations high enough for the rich man to actually feel the blow. In this society there is no government, remember?
This means that “laws” are never fixed regardless of the case. Justice will adapt to each and every particular case. So if a rich man did a rape and a particular fine is not doing enough to discourage him from doing it again, the fine will simply be set higher, so high in fact that HE WILL feel the burden and think twice before doing such thing again.
Free market perfectly adapts to each and every situation because the laws governing it are natural, simple and understood by all. It works by value exchange or consent between two or more people. But this doesn’t work so well when you have the government nosing in on those relationships and imposing its own special and yet totally unnecessary, unrelated or downright disruptive “rules” and “regulations”.
Read it in whole with an open mind. Don’t just try to dismiss everything before you even finished it.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:15 am
> They can in principle get away with anything because they can easily afford to pay any fine they will get, and won’t get fines that they couldn’t afford to pay because the governments depend on them.
Therefore governments actually sanction their existence in order to further themselves? Yet government is a coercive monopoly whereas that company is operating within a market which expects it to provide a particular kind of value. Who is the one in the wrong here?
I’ll say again that it is exactly government intervention which causes imbalances that lead to the rift between extremely poor and extremely rich to widen. Imagine weighing two objects against each other on a balancing device and then having Mr. Government pushing one or other end of the balance with his hands in order to “fix the balance”.
That is exactly what I see happening in the interaction between government and free market. They are trying to “fix the balance”, which is a contradiction. Balance is balance only when nothing external intervenes to disrupt it. Free Market is about that balance, between self interest of all individuals, guided by the natural laws of human interaction (action/reaction, supply/demand with the consistent pull upward towards more wealth, more quality and more happiness).
> And what do you think the majority of people who are locked in to using the products and services of harmful companies will think of those trying to bring those same companies down?
Why else lock-in happens than because of ignorance of a large number of individuals, and what else is this ignorance than a lack of responsibility? Furthermore, what else does government encourage than ignorance and dependence? These are all connected. In a society in which most people accepted the idea of personal liberty and personal responsibility that comes with it I think it would be harder to pull one over them with some sort of a lock-in strategy.
Furthermore, the landscape of copyrights, trademarks etc. is much much different when it is the market dealing with them and not the government. Government is just too slow and static. To reform the copyright law it should apparently take decades, even when we have a mass of people obviously disillusioned by the current state of things. Not only that, but the power of government is *successfully* abused by market interests to make copyright even worse. Yet if government as a concentration of power didn’t exist, there would be no single place from which to derive such power and companies would indeed be left to the devices of generating true value rather than subverting people, to generate their profits. This shows how mere existence of a repository of power such as the government already calls for corruption in the society.
And when all companies truly need to EARN their position in the market, especially combined with the fact that the individuals in the market are much less ignorant and much more rational about their self interest, it would be a lot harder for any of them to find a quick shortcut to a monopoly position. And if they don’t have a monopoly position then they can hardly impose one lock in standard without people just flocking to something more open and respectful towards them as free individuals.
Employing any such devious tactics as lock in is simply much harder when there are no quick shortcut options to rely on such as buying some power from the supermarket of power that the government is.
> Well, I guess it’s clear what I think of letting only the market regulate violence.
Yeah, you’d rather violence be regulated by violence. Remember, it is the government which makes violence AND coercion legal. It’s just that it reserves this power to itself. A “coercive monopoly” is a great term here.
March 28th, 2008 at 2:39 am
Oh and one other thingy. You might be aware that the most common forms of business in use today are Limited Liability Company and Corporation (Inc.). These business forms are used because they allow their owners to assume limited liability (as LLC even states in the name). These forms are government provisions for making individual businessmen hold LESS responsibility for their business dealings by making those dealings as separate from themselves personally.
This provision is in fact a direct obviously government-aided enticement of corruption in the market, because it allows a business person to do things that are unjust yet get away with it, not suffer the consequences he would otherwise suffer.
But in a free market, free from government intervention, there would be no central power to ensure that a business person isn’t fully responsible for his own business activities. Therefore, there is no such thing as a Limited Liability Company or a Corporation in a truly free market. Instead a “company” is just a name under which a group of people does business (a certain set of consented transactions), a name which can be exclusively used by the business owner or contracted by him to other individuals (employers, business partners etc.).
Therefore, this 100% responsibility for each and every business action an individual undertakes is just one of the forces contributing to market’s self-regulation.
Compared with this kind of responsibility anti-trust and other laws designed to “restrain” businesses (even while other laws actually make some businesses act unjustly) are pitiful. Government is naturally inefficient in regulating the market, while at the same time it prevents the market from regulating itself properly. This is what really inspires anger in me - that for all this time government has been supposedly tweaking and tinkering with something that would’ve just worked by itself SHOULD THEY HAVE NOT INTERFERED. It makes me pissed that I am suffering the consequences of their tweaking and tinkering when I could have had a much more fair and free world if they just fucking stayed away!
March 28th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Violence is ultimately regulated by violence either way. Fines have to be extracted somehow.
I happen to prefer democratically developed law over the randomness of “natural” law in which if you’re disliked and/or poor, you’re *****ed, no matter how innocent you are. It’s the law of the jungle (and that’s a little punny).
March 28th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
s/fine/damage repayment/
March 28th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
There is a difference between initiating force and “retaliatory” force. The only “violence” you are talking about is about self defence, not coercion that government consistently employs and thrives on.
Your calling of natural law as random is utterly illogical, for then the law of gravity or any other natural law is “random” and can’t be trusted.
You assume that being disliked and poor immediately removes all incentives from free market participants to have anything to do with those people, when the contrary is true. Even if someone is disliked, if there is an opportunity for exchange of values a good business person will recognize it. Trade knows no boundaries, including such boundaries as what worldview does one carry or how “weird” does one look. In fact these stupid norms thrive in a system which trains a singular view of the world, a system *led* by the concentrator of power which finds it in its interest to keep people as conforming as possible.
You’re so full of contradictions. It is exactly in the system which we have today that people who are less lucky suffer. Your puny welfare system is nothing but basic life support which never encourages its users to try and become more than just survivalists using this life support, to come on their own - and in fact the breadth of taxes and regulations in fact prevents the poor from pursuing business opportunities that could get them out of poverty.
But hey, if it’s that hard to see past the myths, suit yourself.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
That might have sounded a bit angry, sorry. Passionate people get riled up sometimes, but I mean you no ill will. Disagreement is acceptable no matter how fundamental they may be. We agree on enough other things to remain cooperative and friendly most of the time.
But I’m not budging from my conviction on this.
March 28th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
There is quite a difference between the natural law of gravity and the “natural” law of the market. The first is a law of physics, the second is the supposed result of using a set of rules known as “trading”.
All I’m saying about the disliked and poor is that a free market without government doesn’t protect them from lynch mobs.
March 29th, 2008 at 3:11 am
The way we figure out any natural law is by observing the reality around us and looking for patterns. A human being is just as physical as an apple falling off of a tree. The difference is that in addition to being a physical object a human being has additional ways in which it interacts with its environment - which stem from the fact that he is alive and sentient. Just the same as we determined other natural laws we can determine the natural law applying to human actions and interactions and what can be said to consistently match the pattern is that humans always act on their self interest - which translates to preservation and betterment of his or her life.
When you put a human being in a society, what arises from this self interested behaviour is a market in which the only fundamental rule is one of non-coercion, from which all else follows. This is because no human being wishes to be harmed or treaded on, and in a market in which everyone is fully responsible for themselves nobody wishes to be the one initiating a relationship of mutually applied force, because it is always mutually destructive.
The reason most people think this is not so and that it cannot work is because there has always been external interruption of these natural processes which created imbalances and ultimately gave way to incentives for violence.
I don’t believe lynch mobs would have much room for existence in an uninterrupted natural free market. The whole point is that the free market is self-regulating by its nature and when we say self-regulating we mean it to the fullest meaning of the term. Free market does protect individuals from such threats exactly because it leaves it up to individuals to protect themselves, and does the same for ALL individuals.
Therefore I find the belief that government must be there to protect us from something at this point, quite shortsighted and limited.
But if you can’t agree, well fair enough. We need not to go on forever then. Go your way, explore and believe what you find to be most truthful.
March 29th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
The free market only protects those for who there is someone else to collect damages in case they are killed.
Another thought that occurred to me: in an unregulated free market everyone will constantly be running background checks on everyone they do business with, to ensure they don’t get conned or get a bad reputation because of doing business with criminals. I don’t consider that kind of society desirable, but never mind that for now. Also, it means criminals can never achieve full rehabilitation, and worse, that those found guilty by mistake can never achieve full rehabilitation either, but never mind those things for now either.
Because running a background check on everyone by oneself is completely infeasible, there will be a huge business in providing reports of behavior. Which makes me worried about privacy, but never mind that for now. The most profitable way to run such a business is to provide a constant stream of reports on accidents and honest mistakes, while accepting bribes from the real criminals to wipe records of their bad behavior. A different background check company might notice this and publish accusations, but competing background check companies might just as well publish false accusations about each other to improve their own business. So what way is there to know for the client which background check company is corrupted and which is not? None, especially because by being in the business of looking for hidden evidence, they know exactly how to get rid of evidence.
I have a different name for background check companies: police. The interesting thing about the police is that the less government funding they receive, the more corrupted they get. When paid by the market, they would be somewhat corrupt by default, and the free market without quality control (and I explained above that there would be no proper quality control because they are their own quality control) would drive the prices down to their minimum, causing this police to be very corrupt.
I sense you’re getting tired of this debate. Alright then. I’ll give you one final remark, and then leave you alone:
Democracy is a form of free market, in which the currency is the vote.
March 29th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
First off, I have to admit I didn’t read half the comments so far.
In my view, the role of the government is, ultimately, to protect individuals and their dignity as seen by the German Grundgesetz (constitution equiv.) Take, as seen above, a rapist as example. He rapes a poor little girl, and shoots her, for good measure. Or not, that doesn’t matter as long as we have a witness. Now, you say, a fine is imposed depending on the wealth of the criminal, and the fact that he is a criminal is made public knowledge. Now, I ask you, how is the fine collected ? Who does it ? How do they do it ? What if the collectors get killed by the rapist’s private guard ?
Also, you say that the crime will have consequences in the market. In a Klingon society, that might work: noone would want to deal with a man without honour — while that could be human culture, it is not and is certainly not natural law.
Take the mafia. The continued existance of mafia defied the logic of punishment and honour. They operate on superior firepower and thus induced fear. The mafia create a way to save one’s own neck, and the own family, while presenting an enormous menace to those that defy the mafia to protect other citizens. I believe that crime can arise in every society, and can, if not suppressed by a *larger* organisation (such as a government), exploit the survival instinct and emotions (above all fear) to survive.
March 29th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
> The free market only protects those for who there is someone else to collect damages in case they are killed.
What damages? If you’re talking about insurance companies from what I know the way they work is to charge you a monthly, yearly or whatever-is-the-contract fee and pay you off should something happen to you. If you die the money goes to your estate. If you don’t have an estate it goes to the first one to deservedly grab it by participating in the resolution of the murder case.
> Another thought that occurred to me: in an unregulated free market everyone will constantly be running background checks on everyone
Yeah, and news media will do what? Scratch their backs and write about Britney Spears caught naked on a beach? Maybe in this world, but business being the main way in which a free society functions it will be under constant scrutiny by the media. Of course, as a self-responsible person you would have to be in on things, but that you will have to be your own private detective all the time is just pushing it too far. Newsmen are part of the market and bad business practices and disruptions are their biggest stories!
> Also, it means criminals can never achieve full rehabilitation, and worse, that those found guilty by mistake can never achieve full rehabilitation either
What are you talking about man? If by “rehabilitation” you mean “rotting in prison for decades” just to rob him of any meaning in life and therefore of motive to do criminal activities (yeah right) the way it is done today (prevalently) then sure, no such “rehabilitation” in a free society! I know I should talk from my own mind here, but this is where I elect the book, did you read it by now? It very nicely describes how rehabilitation is done - and it is much more positive than the way it is done today because instead of focusing merely on punishment and submission to authority it focuses on removing the desire to harm others by encouraging the desire to pursue ones rational self interest.
As for innocent being rehabilitated? Wtf? If they didn’t do it they have nothing to be rehabilitated from…
> there will be a huge business in providing reports of behavior…
Sure, and people wont exactly leave their brains at the doors of such a society to not be suspicious enough of any business doing “reports” yet doing it in a non-transparent ways. And then there is also the news media as explained above. I’d expect the “commons based peer production” model of rating companies’ trustworthiness would prevail.
You’re using a lot of conjecture in the rest of that paragraph based on rather shaky foundations. It’s just a story you imagine happening because it happens in today’s corrupt society in which respect for authority, regulated media and secrecy is still a standard.
> Democracy is a form of free market, in which the currency is the vote.
Oh man.
Free market is not about “currency”. It is about value. This is why instead of fiat currencies a true free market would use something like gold and silver to 100% back its means of exchange.
The comparison you make here doesn’t make any sense at all. In a democracy as we have it you can “pay” a vote only about every four years and then hope for the best. Even direct democracy isn’t as granular and specific as voting with your wallet Not to mention perhaps the most fundamental difference between democracy and a free market. If the majority of people make one choice you need not submit to it. A minority in a free market is not “the opposition”, it is a niche which will be served by smaller companies recognizing the opportunities that lie there.
Really, IMHO, that was a poor attempt to make an elephant look like a girraffe. Does not compute.
March 29th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Thomas,
> In my view, the role of the government is, ultimately, to protect individuals and their dignity
I no longer believe in the necessity of their protection because it is akin to a protection racket. Their protection bears a price which is not just in the monetary cost of financing them, but in the cost on my freedom - I am coerced to hire government as my defence agency instead of choosing myself whom I want to protect me and how.
> Now, I ask you, how is the fine collected ? Who does it ? How do they do it ? What if the collectors get killed by the rapist’s private guard ?
In a free market society a fundamental law is one of non-initiation of force (one recognized by all people naturally). This does NOT equate to pacifism. If someone initiates force upon you or your property you have the right to defend yourself and retaliate. Once such a crime has been committed the one who committed it is by no means safe in the streets of such a society because he is now marked as the one who broke the non-initiation of force law and everyone feels compelled to capture him and bring him to justice.
And indeed, a defence agency whom the parents of the murdered child hired would go into active pursuit of the criminal, capture him, call the arbiters from an arbitration company they may have partnered with (in order to determine whether he is the one who did it, hear out the witness etc.) and then force him to pay out to the family of the victim.
Force is in this case justifiable, on behalf of the victim because it is part of the retaliatory force, not the “initiated” (started) force. It is therefore always the one who *initiates* force against whom force necessary to aprehend him and extract damages is justified.
So I think you might at least see how a free market could by the fundamental law of “supply and demand” (of justice in this case) effectively replace government instituted measures against crime.
> Also, you say that the crime will have consequences in the market. In a Klingon society, that might work: noone would want to deal with a man without honour — while that could be human culture, it is not and is certainly not natural law.
Natural law is more fundamental than that indeed, which is why people do harm onto others in the current society. The natural law says that a human pursues his self interest. And if the structure is disbalanced and unjust this may mean that he may use violence and coercion. Today, violence and coercion are institutionalized by government, so there’s no wonder that it happens so often by both the government and those who suffer the consequences of its inescapable intervention.
But if you put a man of such nature in a society where he can fully and freely pursue his interests (without anybody treading on him and wanting a cut on everything he achieves) he is much less motivated to use violence to his ends. This is why, extracted from mans self interest, the law of the market dictates that coercion and violence would be largely made undesirable. It is incompatible with the inner workings of a system that is the Laissez-Faire Free Market.
You say this is not the culture we have. Of course, and that’s the problem! In our culture people still think they need government to protect them and hence train themselves into dependence on others rather than themselves and hence less responsibility, while through this process unwittinly putting themselves in a frustrated position of not being free. But that’s why we have to change the way people think - and therefore change the prevalent belief system and by that the culture. Only then can we establish a true Laissez-Faire Free Market society.
Since my only “weapon” or a tool here is therefore spreading of an idea you can be sure that I wont be exercising any sort of coercion or fraud (dirty tricks, manipulation etc.) in order to help bring about such a society - exactly because I already cultivate the culture which abandons coercion as means to an end and embraces individual responsibility and voluntary choice instead!
> The continued existance of mafia defied the logic of punishment and honour.
I already explained in the blog how Mafia is actually a consequence of government intervention. Government creates pockets of prohibited activities which only those bold enough to dare fight with the police then populate - creating black markets dominated by underground organized crime. If such governmental prohibitions never existed, such markets would instead be populated by normal businessmen competing the only way you can effectively compete - by producing greatest value to the customer. And when that is the value proposition, violence has no place in it - it is in fact too expensive.
> I believe that crime can arise in every society, and can, if not suppressed by a *larger* organisation (such as a government), exploit the survival instinct and emotions (above all fear) to survive.
But can’t you see that it is exactly the existence of a power concentrating *coercive* monopoly meddling in the affairs of all individuals that causes the disruption and frustration that motivates the rise of violence? You talk about manipulating people by using their emotions. Well that’s exactly what government is doing. They offer protection and if you don’t want it you are the one getting the stick. So even if you chose not to accept certain government services you would do it out of *fear* of the police, fines etc. Who is the mafia here?
Can you then wonder that some people just say “well to hell with this, I’m taking a gun and I will not let the government do this to me anymore” - and then fall into a slippery slope that is the culture of crime when in the name of fighting the government they end up hurting innocent people as well.
Violence (even the threat of violence) breeds violence, and it all starts with the one first initiation such a threat (as a matter of law even!) - the government.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:53 am
What Taco was talking about:
If you assume that the market punishes wrongdoers, you must also assume that participants in the market know who to punish. Which also means that they will have to know every criminal, and everybody they do business with. Not to mention that they must agree that it is in their interest NOT to do business with potentially wealthy customers.
I am not saying that governments as they are are doing a good job and should be maintained AS SUCH. I am saying that we need someone to define right and wrong (in modern state theory that’s legislative and judicative) and some way to make sure that that is respected (currently: executive). Be sure to note that in theory the government is just the head of the executive, but is that what you meant ? I don’t think so. It is centainly not the meaning I had in mind when writing the above. Anyway, you speak of justice companies and such. Well, how shall be decided who is to settle the case ? Currently, one entity (let’s call it the “system”) has a monopoly on justice, and, ideally, manages to maintain logic-based neutrality. THAT is the one single monopoly I cannot envision losing. The monopoly on courts, *exchangable* by the people (revolution, referendum, whatever). This can be split into different courts, they can hire different security agencies, decide on different companies to carry out punishment, I don’t care. But there has to be ONE SINGLE place to go to in case of a dispute, ONE single entity that can make decisions that MUST be accepted. A place where one can count on a fair trial with a more-or-less final outcome.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:26 am
> If you assume that the market punishes wrongdoers, you must also assume that participants in the market know who to punish.
I already addressed that. They’d in fact know even better than government ever can. Government is one entity which wants to take care of everything, resolve all cases and pursue and punish every wrongdoer despite not having direct insight into any of these cases. The one who does is the individual who IS a part of it.
Victim has the right to choose a style of protection and the arbiter of justice that (s)he wants without some government telling him or her that it must be this ONE single court with one single set of rules kludgily applying to all individual cases.
Also, when you have competition rather than a monopoly the service is always gonna be improved and its users will always benefit. What real incentive does a government have for making its services as optimal as they can be when there’s nobody to out-compete, when they forcefully set themselves as the only ones who can do this.
Therefore, just as I believe in the multiplicity of opinions and diversity of individuals I believe in the multiplicity of choices of courts, defense agencies, insurance companies and just about everything. I no longer buy the indoctrination that says that for some things there must ALWAYS be ONE. Again, from where I stand now this looks simply shortsighted.
Your insistence on a single monopoly on justice is actually baffling and honestly feels like an output of indoctrination, no offense intended (we are all in the same boat). But reread what you said and think about the implications of what you’re saying, the absoluteness of your statements. Do I really need someone else to tell me whether something I am doing is wrong?
As long as my opinion on right and wrong does not harm another being to have the same or different opinion, then I should be free to have it. The principle of non-initiation of force is the only one needing enforcement - and due to its universality and simplicity (it is understood naturally by everyone, because nobody wants to be hurt and everyone wants to be free) Free Market can do it better than government.
I strongly believe coercive monopolies are wrong. Initiation of force is the fundamental sin a government is always guilty of. So don’t expect me to trust it to deal some sort of justice upon me!
March 30th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
What I mean by rehabilitation is that after some form of justice has been done, the criminal can live the same kind of life as everyone else. In a purely market based society, criminals will be perceived as higher risk to do business with for the rest of their lives, because on average they indeed are higher risk. That’s not fair to the individual though. You might say it is their own fault, that they bring lifelong punishment upon themselves.
What’s worse is that in ANY system there will be cases where an innocent is found guilty by mistake. It is impossible to avoid. It’s bad enough these people get punished, but should they be second class citizens for their entire lives?
As for the media, they indeed are a form of “reputation check company”. And what is to stop anyone from bribing the media to keep quiet? Or from publishing a bullshit story through a competing media company how that painful story really was a bunch of “lies” that a competitor paid the publisher to publish?
“Truth” can be sold, and selling it will be damn profitable.
March 30th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
If the “victim” choses the court company, they can essentially “buy” a legal victory. They can fake the result of a trial with money by chosing the “right” company for them. The defendant might then decide to sue that court company with another court company to save his own neck. In the end, the legal system will make sure somebody is bankrupt, or somebody gets killed to settle the dispute once and for all.
Many crimes will, one way or another, end in a dispute. Somehow that dispute has to be settled. “Traditionally”, that might be done by murder, but in a humane system somehow a *final* and above all *neutral* solution has to be found. If either side decides who settles the dispute, there’s a good chance of bias (not good).
You can’t avoid dispute, and unless there is some entity making absolutely final decisions, there will, in many cases, be no end. On a related note, I think that a justice system must, to be fair, be independent of money and market, or the wealthy will always find a way to either win or at least end the case unsettled by driving the other into bankruptcy.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
> In a purely market based society, criminals will be perceived as higher risk to do business with for the rest of their lives, because on average they indeed are higher risk.
All the more reason to refrain from criminal activity in the first place, and the only really criminal activity is one which involves initiation of force and fraud, not a whole slew of criminalized activities we have today.
I don’t see how their situation is worse than prison and stigma that is with them afterwards even in the current society. Besides, I wouldn’t so quickly dismiss the possibility of them being “re-integrated” into reputable society should their business then on prove to be valuable and honest. Nobody will give them their reputation back on a plate - they’ll indeed have to earn it and earn it they can. I don’t see this as an absolute case of “lifelong punishment”.
> What’s worse is that in ANY system there will be cases where an innocent is found guilty by mistake. It is impossible to avoid. It’s bad enough these people get punished, but should they be second class citizens for their entire lives?
Ever heard of the saying “if you’re innocent you have nothing to be afraid of”. An innocent man did not do what he is charged for and is therefore not the type of person who would from then on show any signs of criminal behavior, but would rather act honestly and continue providing value. He has all right to try and prove his innocence and then seek reparations for his suffering.
I think a Free Market would be more efficient at detecting such cases than government’s “behind the closed doors” approach where the market and hence people at large are usually ignorant to such cases. In a Free Market, every individual and his/her decisions is a judge too, that can contribute transparently to the process of justice, without even being called officially by any court.
> And what is to stop anyone from bribing the media to keep quiet? Or from publishing a bullshit story through a competing media company how that painful story really was a bunch of “lies” that a competitor paid the publisher to publish?
It’s not like we’d have a single or merely few media companies, especially in this digital age. Indeed we today find individual bloggers to have quite a bit of influence - this would be even more so in a Free Market. As one initiates in corruption and other one reports lies about it, another would report on both of them doing exactly what they are doing.
That said, I don’t think what you’re talking about here is something we don’t get in the current society anyway. I strongly doubt it can be any worse in a Free Market. You may say today laws restrain some of the corruption (seriously doubt so considering that even lawmakers themselves tend to be corrupt), but in the market it is in the interest of the market individuals to see corruption away too - so there is still a significant enough number of peoplt to form a strong anti-corruption force and make those who want to initiate in fraud have a very hard time doing so.
> “Truth” can be sold, and selling it will be damn profitable.
Truth is already being sold. The problem is people actually buy it too easily instead of responsibly weighing things by themselves. I have to re-emphasize that a truly Free Market and personally responsible individuals must go together (because increased freedom means increased responsibility). And people who are hence taught to be free and lead their own lives are harder to be sold just any truth.
Truth is sold to us by the government all the time, and unfortunately too many of us just buy it without much question about it. Well, I questioned the necessity of government and found it to be unnecessary and a hindrance. If you could peak into my mind you would probably understand why. I am already writing too long posts - obviously I can’t express 100% everything that makes me believe this in a reasonable amount of space.
March 30th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
> If the “victim” choses the court company, they can essentially “buy” a legal victory.
Just as Taco you’re basically assuming corruption would go rampant, as if it isn’t already. I in turn find that a Free Market would discourage such behaviour and encourage excellence in providing the service, whatever it may be, including the service of justice. The reasoning is based on the fact that a Free Market, when there is no government interruption, consists of people who are more responsible and less ignorant - hence making it harder on anyone to fool fraud them and making it not just dishonest, but *expensive* to risk buying injustice).
> but in a humane system somehow a *final* and above all *neutral* solution has to be found. If either side decides who settles the dispute, there’s a good chance of bias (not good).
As if government sanctioned courts are always “neutral” and can’t be corrupted..
I didn’t say that the court has to be chosen by a single party in a dispute. It would have to be agreed upon by both parties. The details depend case by case because no case is absolutely the same. This is another reason why free market works better. No single set of laws can perfectly apply to each case. Market is flexible that way, government never is.
Cheers
March 30th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Now you’re making me curious: how does a change in the way society works make people more intelligent?
Another thing: all this free market thinking seems based on the idea that people will make rational decisions. But people aren’t rational. If people were rational, they would strictly obey the law, and if they didn’t like the law they would start a procedure to change it. If people were rational, they wouldn’t buy stuff just because they saw it on TV.
I am 100% convinced that without government, and with a population density similar or higher than the current, lynch mobs wouldn’t be uncommon at all, the culture of distrust inherent to a pure free market only makes it worse.
Contrary to what you think, there have been times and places without government, where indeed gold was the currency. There were lynch mobs, and the results weren’t pretty for the native americans either.
A system of justice based on repaying damages has also been tried before. If I’m not mistaken, people also burned “witches” at the stake in the very same places and times.
> Ever heard of the saying “if you’re innocent you have nothing to be afraid of”.
Yes, and you know just as well as I do that it’s bullshit. Compare it to the similar statement about cryptography “if you have nothing to hide, you don’t need to hide it”.
> It’s not like we’d have a single or merely few media companies, especially in this digital age. Indeed we today find individual bloggers to have quite a bit of influence - this would be even more so in a Free Market. As one initiates in corruption and other one reports lies about it, another would report on both of them doing exactly what they are doing.
Which helps how? What do we have to prove that the third one is honest rather than trying to get rid of a competitor and the competitor of a friend at the same time?
Sure there might be a majority reporting one thing, and a minority reporting the other, but does that mean anything? Or are they just copying the juicier story? Or is one side handing out more bribes than the other?
Again, what makes you think that without government, people will magically become intelligent, rational and honest? Honest is the rational thing to be, and rational is the intelligent thing to be, so I guess I can shorten the question: How does a free market boost IQ?
March 31st, 2008 at 2:34 am
> Another thing: all this free market thinking seems based on the idea that people will make rational decisions. But people aren’t rational.
Actually it is just based on these two things.
1.) Every individual is interested in improving his or her life (we are all selfish, and even selflessness is just a subset of that).
2.) Following from the above, every individual needs freedom to pursue his or her interests fully.
By nature, we all have the former. However due to government established intervention we do not have enough of the latter to go with it, which creates a frustration. Majority of people, like you, would argue that the existing limits on this freedom are necessary for our protection, even though at the same time feeling the frustrations that come from these limits.
I think this frustration actually encourages irrational pursuits, because when you wish to accomplish something you so often start feeling the restraints as a continuous hindrance that you cannot get rid in any other way, but to essentially rebell. Regardless of whether you really do choose to rebell or just follow the rules imposed on you, the frustration will be there and it will fuel depression, corruption, violent behaviour etc. (all examples of irrational pursuits).
Interestingly, given these circumstances these “irrational” behaviours are in some sense actually rational. It is a natural consequence of the predicament we find ourselves in.
I think that if you just give man a chance, he will genuinely try to do good, but if you limit him, you limit his potential - but you cannot limit his desires and aspirations - hence putting him in this frustrating situation and directly inducing unbalanced behaviour. It’s like trying to cage a bird which just wants to fly away. She WILL bite and you can’t blame her!
I hope I managed to express this well, this is essentially where my belief that if given more freedom a human would actually be a better one, comes from.
> I am 100% convinced that without government, and with a population density similar or higher than the current, lynch mobs wouldn’t be uncommon at all, the culture of distrust inherent to a pure free market only makes it worse.
Think of the motives one would have to have in order to behave in a way that would make him a part of a lynch mob and then ask yourself whether there are any components of external reality (relative to that individual) which are inducing such motives. We are not islands. The way our society functions affects what we do and who we are. We can’t escape it.
What else is our social system than a set of interactions between people. When too many of those interactions leave any of those involved disatisfied and frustrated what kind of society do you think we’ll have?
I think Free Market is really the optimal way to ensure that most interactions leave those interacting with more value and satisfaction. And the reason should be obvious. The interaction in a free market depends solely on two or more individuals fully consenting. There is nobody to force anything more on top of that from the outside. If I agree with you on something that’s where, as far as that interaction goes, the story ends. We don’t need anyone else there.
Will such an interaction be in service of fraud? Why? Why if you can achieve more by providing true value instead, value that is inside of who you are (because, left to his own freedom of pursuit an individual in a free market is more likely to find himself and pursue what really makes him happy).
> Or is one side handing out more bribes than the other?
If that side wants to be the majority they would have to pay a whole lot more if they are earning it with bribes. You can argue again about huge corporations with botomless pockets and whatever. I already explained that such conentration of wealth and power would be restrained by the banishing of corporations and other limited liability (read: “I-can-do-bad-business-and-get-away-with-it Inc. LLC, LTD etc.) firms. What would essentially be left are sole proprietorships and contracts which make a given property shared as part of a “company”.
All this makes fraud quite expensive so the question is worth asking, why bother? Maybe it could pay more if you just did honest business instead. Besides, nobody is taxing you, nobody is restricting you - your arms are not tied. Why go against the system when the system is actually all about you - the individual making his dreams come true?
> How does a free market boost IQ?
I think you can conclude yourself from the above that it has nothing to do with IQ. It all really comes down to action and reaction. Government sucks so people whom it leads suck too (and sucky as they are they even help perpetuate the suckiness of it all, until someone convinces them that there actually IS a better way). If you want people to be better, let them have a society in which they CAN be better, where they CAN achieve their full potential without someone constantly standing on their tired backs.
March 31st, 2008 at 3:00 am
Sorry for a long comment again. I try to shorten it, but it’s hard to express these things in just so few sentences.
Anyway, I just wanted to add that this reminds me of how I sometimes feel about people presented in some movies and stories which were criminals. When you really go digging into their life, you actually start understanding the criminal, no matter how bad the crimes he committed are. These are the moments when I recognize that this criminal isn’t the way he is because he is somehow inherently born evil or because he wanted to do harm. He is a product of culture he is in.
And interestingly a common thread in all these stories seem to be that criminals started out by way of “rebellion”. They failed to find fulfillment in the social structure as it stands so they went “underground”, smoking some pot, taking a gun, joining a gang, now taking some stronger drugs, getting hooked and then robbing banks and killing people because that’s what makes him feel stronger (more balls) in his little new cult..
So again, put him in a better social structure, give him more freedom to start with and encourage him to follow his dreams. Government fails to do that. It sacrifices his freedom for the fiction of “common good”, taxes him on every success he has and encourages dependence. Suddenly, pursuing your dreams doesn’t seem all that it was cracked up to be, does it?
Well, you know, my anarcho-capitalist views, which were long coming and I feel totally a natural outcome of the views I’ve been developing, is MY way to rebell. I wont necessarily be engaging in outright tax evasion, taking a gun and joining some anti-government revolutionaries.
I am more developed than that. I will spread an idea instead while building my influence and capacity as legally as I can. I recognize that I can try to respect the law even as I spread the “dangerous idea” that can undermine its issuer. Governments therefore shouldn’t want me as their citizen, but hey.. tough luck - maybe they could do me a favor and deport me to New Hampshire.
Cheers
March 31st, 2008 at 11:33 am
> Actually it is just based on these two things.
1.) Every individual is interested in improving his or her life (we are all selfish, and even selflessness is just a subset of that).
2.) Following from the above, every individual needs freedom to pursue his or her interests fully.
For an individual to follow those concepts, some level of rationality is required. As I said before, people buy stuff just because they see it on TV (probably even I do that), which is definitely not in their self interest because they would be better off buying a product of equal quality but lower price with no advertising to be paid for.
Also, I don’t think I agree with that base. People are NOT purely selfish, with selflessness as a weird expression of selfishness. I can probably prove that too:
If I would give you conclusive evidence there is no afterlife, and would give you this choice, what would you choose?: either you die, or a million people you don’t even know and who you and everyone you do know would never have met anyway die. The effect on the economy in any country you will ever visit will be zero. Also, nobody will ever find out you made this choice. You will be the only one in all time who has to make this choice, so there is no selfish reason to obey the golden rule.
If you were purely selfish, you would quickly make the following comparison, leading to an obvious conclusion:
you die - positive: nothing, not even an afterlife in heaven ; negative: YOU DIE!
a million people who are completely irrelevant to you die - positive: you get to live ; negative: there aren’t any negative consequences for you.
What would you do?
Of course this is a ridiculously unrealistic situation, but I had to eliminate all the selfish motivations for selflessness to show there also is selflessness without a selfish motivation.
By the way, you have a really weird idea about limited liability there. The purpose of LL is to encourage business, by making sure that someone who starts a business won’t get into a never repayable debt if he fails. However if the business fails because of criminal behavior, the business owner will be held liable anyway.
Note that limited liability is also possible in a no-government free market: one can state in all of ones contracts that there is a limit on ones liability. Anyone doing business with a company that operates that way can decide for themselves if they are willing to take the extra risk.
The downside of doing limited liability the free market way is that the market force works against it: anyone will prefer to do business with a full liability company so they can recover more in case of a failure. This then creates a strong market force against starting new companies. And no, insurance companies can’t fix that because starters usually are high risk and low profit, meaning a starter most likely couldn’t afford the kind of insurance they need.
March 31st, 2008 at 9:56 pm
>For an individual to follow those concepts, some level of rationality is required. As I said before, people buy stuff just because they see it on TV (probably even I do that), which is definitely not in their self interest because they would be better off buying a product of equal quality but lower price with no advertising to be paid for.
You say “this is not in their self-interest” and then go on to pass judgement on their buying habits? Buying is, at it’s simplest form, exchanging on value for another. Perhaps this item on TV is a new video game and anyoen who doesn’t have it is a loser - you’d be exchanging coin for social standing. That social standing might not have ANY value to you but that doesn’t make the purchase irrational. This differences in value, and what values different things provide, is the reason the free market works. In your case you value frugality (getting the most practical functionality out of item X) so the cheapest screwdriver capable of removing a screw is the best. My wife, however, values pleasant sensory experience and might pay more money for an otherwise equally capable (at removing screws) screwdriver because it is purple and she likes the color.
>By the way, you have a really weird idea about limited liability there. The purpose of LL is to encourage business, by making sure that someone who starts a business won’t get into a never repayable debt if he fails.
It is impossible to create debt that is “never repayable”. In the case of LLC’s any debt that is taken by the LLC is “written off” by the government. That actions doesn’t MAGICALLY create new items of value to go back to the people willing to invest in the LLC. It is either not replaced or it IS replaced at the expense of those paying money to the government (people who had NO connection to the success or failure of the LLC). On the flip side, if lenders and investors actually had to evaluate the likelyhood of the business to succeed BEFORE giving the money, they might not be so willing to fund a venture that doesn’t generate sustainable value.
April 1st, 2008 at 8:10 am
> As I said before, people buy stuff just because they see it on TV (probably even I do that), which is definitely not in their self interest
But you can’t say what is or isn’t in their self interest. It depends on what they at any given point in time believe would improve their life. That’s all that matters. And really, speaking of rational pursuit, I really mean any pursuit as long as it doesn’t result in initiating force or fraud - with hope that it is also a noble and effective strategy (but that much we don’t have to enforce, it’s up to the individual).
> Of course this is a ridiculously unrealistic situation, but I had to eliminate all the selfish motivations for selflessness to show there also is selflessness without a selfish motivation.
That IS extreme, alright. I suppose there is always an exception to the rule just as all fundamental (or so sounding) principles always seem to meet their opposite in some paradox. It could be argued that the choice not to kill myself would actually be a selfish choice - I would feel good knowing it is the right thing to do which may then and there be preferrable to a vision of life of guilt (for letting millions of people die for you).
However, since the result is termination of your life it is true that this cannot be considered an act meant to better your life, although even there it could be argued that you actually are bettering the moments of your life before you take it from yourself, by doing something that makes you feel right.
That said, for lack of realistic chance of it happening it might as well be categorized as speculative evidence against the still prevailing fact that exercising selflessness is in fact in many ways exercising selfishness and that this rule is worth considering when contemplating what kind of society we should pursue.
> The purpose of LL is to encourage business, by making sure that someone who starts a business won’t get into a never repayable debt if he fails.
Then it doesn’t seem like that purpose is always really followed through as such and the limited liability is extended to include protection from things you ought not to be protected from. I was also talking about corporations which are even worse when it comes to doing unjust business yet not making individuals doing it fully liable for it.
> Anyone doing business with a company that operates that way can decide for themselves if they are willing to take the extra risk.
Exactly, which adds to the cost of doing a business in such a manner. The businessmen must know that some people wont like the reduced liability. That said, a contract is consentual. As long as there is no coercion and fraud it means no harm. It’s still different from having limited liability institutionalized.
> anyone will prefer to do business with a full liability company so they can recover more in case of a failure. This then creates a strong market force against starting new companies.
Maybe so if a free market was built out of wimps who are too afraid to take risks on their own merit. You might have noticed that boosting personal responsibility is among the fundamental tenets of the view I adopted, not shielding people from their own mistakes.
That said, I’d argue that this circumstance would just make entrepreneurs more rational about their choices and their business (interestingly, the rationality is exactly what we were after so.. great!). I would also argue that whatever disincentive this rationality results from, it will not be any worse than the disincentive - heck even outright inability - of many people today to start businesses, due to governmental impositions and requirements.
Also speaking of insurance, they aren’t the ones taking those kinds of risks indeed. However, venture capitalists, angel and other investors ARE. You have a good idea? Too risky? Seek an investor who can bear the risk and amortize the costs of failure (by a contract of course).
—
I have a feeling that the fundamental point of disagreement that can be traced from various points of this discussion is that I believe humans can be better if given more freedom while you believe they cannot. At this point and after so many posts, I can barely imagine coming to agreement with you.
I am willing to agree on that disagreement. I think either of us can hardly be compellingly proven right or wrong on that particular issue anytime soon, so we might as well just pursue our beliefs and see what happens.
Cheers
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:21 pm
I suppose we must agree to disagree.
Still, I would like to add some final points:
There weren’t always governments. Assuming we got together a decent anarchy system that works in a way you’d approve of (which I, as you know, doubt), there would probably still be “VIPs”. Popstars and other idols as we know them today come naturally with modern media (which, I gather, you would have us keep in some form). They are, and, probably, would be (at least in part), be perceived, if ever so subconciously, as special. They are also a kind of authority, at least today. They could, I assume, evolve into a form of aristocracy in a way, into worldly leaders, like clan leaders did in prehistoric times (I’m guessing here, of course). This might, without mafia-like violence, produce, in some cities or regions, create loose, monarchies — like ancient Teuton monarchies perhaps ? And that could escalate…
Until now, Taco and I have been arguing that an anarchy as you describe it would result in violent chaos or something equally undesirable quickly. The point that I tried to make above is that we have no guarantee that anarchy as you’d like it to work might in the long term (think centuries) not be stable. There’s no need to discuss. If you believe that love for the status quo would definitely be preserved forever, so be it. We’re disagreeing anyway.
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Even if certain kinds of authorities develop, if they don’t coerce anyone to anything in order to remain what they are (preserve their perceived status in the society) then the are actually fine, IMO. Their existence is allowed for by the individuals in a society. If majority of people were to abhor it (and I mean like 80% or more majority) then their influence probably wouldn’t count for calling them anything like “leaders” or “kings” or whatever.
The point is.. if people aren’t forced to accept something and if they approve or disapprove, accept or reject things voluntarily and there is no authority that can make them do otherwise, then the free market hasn’t really failed.
In a sense we could already say that the society we have, even with government, is the fault of “The People”. Despite feeling certain restrictions or impositions, they concede to it and hence perpetuate it.
So there’s no way I or anyone else can change this until people are persuaded to stop believing in the necessity of the coercive monopoly and therefore stop conceding to it (not necessarily as in stop paying taxes, but stop thinking and believing that you pay them as a moral obligation and for some greater good - you don’t.).
This said, I am willing to reconsider and question my beliefs. It’s a constant journey and I know I can’t just stop somewhere and accept it as dogma. But right now, the beliefs I expressed above are actual and I’d act on them, just need to figure out the wisest way.